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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 519 for the 30th of

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September 2018 richardsaunders here with

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you from then we have look out the

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window a sunny sunny Sydney Australia

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although last night the small thunder

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lightning thunder storm came through

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said quite interesting these days when

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you hear a bit of thunder you can run to

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the internet and look up a map and shows

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you exactly where the lightning strikes

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are and the the circle expanding circle

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around the lightning strike of the

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thunder and you can see when the noise

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passes you by well by the time we've

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heard it actually it's passed you violet

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coming up on this week's show our new

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reporter Michelle Franklin talks about

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poaching not eggs poaching animals

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poaching endangered animals to harvest

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them for body parts for sudo medicine

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alternative medicine you've heard this

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sort of thing rhino horn and the bones

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of tigers and whatever the case may be

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michelle has an idea a possible idea

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that maybe could help combat this

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terrible trade following that a news

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report in the last week about a

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so-called vaccination expert being used

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or maybe being used in a court of law

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I think you'll find this report

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interesting now some weeks ago Maynard

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was the host of a event to do of Science

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Week organized by Frankie Lee Thank You

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Frankie about talking to the animals or

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with the animals or AB the animals are

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learning about animals from experts and

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may not interview some of these animal

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experts this is where the science comes

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in with the skeptic zone with the

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science and reason there's not too much

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to be skeptical about here but it is an

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interesting topic animal science then to

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round off the show it's Heidi Robertson

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the Ross skeptic with a follow-up to the

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story she presented last week about the

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vote in the Byron Shire Council when

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where she lives that didn't stop the

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anti-vaxxers hiring out council

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facilities and Heidi will read a report

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about this written by Jane Hansen but

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now it's time for me to run downstairs

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and have one of my favorite snacks said

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come around this time of the year to do

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with Oktoberfest they call them peanut

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flips well I am munch down a few peanut

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flips I hope you enjoy the skeptic zone

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[Music]

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life is wild with Michelle Franklin so

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I'm going to be upfront here and tell

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you that I don't actually have an answer

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to this problem but I have some ideas

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and maybe if I share them you can build

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on when I say poaching what comes to

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mind

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besides eggs I get an image of a

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ruthless hunter stalking a rhino and

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then shooting it dead and removing your

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maybe you think of an endangered Tiger

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species that is killed so that its bones

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and eyes and various other equally

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useless body parts can fail to cure

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anything from malaria to broken arms or

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maybe it's the exhausted leatherback

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turtle who's done the enormous effort of

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swimming across the ocean and locating

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and crawling up some remote beach only

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to have her eggs stolen under the

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assumption that there's somehow going to

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make someone feel a bit more horny

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honestly if that's the effect that

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you're going for and you want to

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pointlessly kill an animal to get it why

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not rabbit at least there's some kind of

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correlation there that you can pretend

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mean something pseudo medicinal poaching

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is a strange and complex practice and

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motivations behind it however socially

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complex and hard to understand basically

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come down to the mistaken belief that

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some parts of some animals have magical

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healing properties that just aren't

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there but fake medicine isn't the only

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motivation behind poaching some people

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poach wildlife for meat or for cultural

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reasons or because they don't have any

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other options and the markets there and

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then

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the money some people want the animal

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products because it's a cultural status

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symbol and some people just want a photo

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of themselves standing over some big

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powerful dead thing so that they can

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pretend that it somehow proves how

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powerful and cool they are then of

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course there's the form of wildlife

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poaching that we see in the news from

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time to time in Australia where the

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motivation behind poaching is nothing to

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do with faulty thinking and it's just a

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bunch of wealthy and otherwise

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law-abiding people who really really

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like Australian animals and just want to

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pet Guyana or a black headed Python so

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what if the animals that they want are

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actually really easy to find and catch

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and people are willing to pay money for

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them what approach should we take if we

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want to protect these animals the pseudo

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medicinal poaching there are some fairly

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straightforward approaches available you

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can target the people who are actually

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doing the hunting provide them with

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better options easier ways to make money

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or you can punish them to the point

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where the punishment outweighs the

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benefits or you can focus on the people

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who buy the poach products educate them

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about the difference between powdered

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magic horn and actual medicine and give

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them access to medicine that will

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provide the benefits that they're

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looking for and by some combination of

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education support punishment maybe we

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can actually make some difference in

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this situation but what about our native

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wildlife that's being poached for the

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pet trade the price is higher the

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collecting is easy and in the unlikely

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event that you get caught the

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punishments laughable so what do we do

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we could address the on ground poachers

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try to catch every person who walks

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through the bush carrying a camera bag

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and make sure they're not popping

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lizards in as they go we could increase

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the punishments give people fines that

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are high enough to make poaching not

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worth the risk we could educate the

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high-rolling want to be herpetologist

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with questionable ethics and a really

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cool snake room about the terrible

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conditions that animals are kept in and

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how they get transported through customs

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and snut smuggled out of australia but

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then there'll always be another slightly

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less empathetic customer waiting in line

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to buy that one

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go or tree frog that survived the 18

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hours stuffed down some blokes undies I

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don't know what the answer is here one

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thing that I think is true across most

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industries is that if the market

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disappears then the producers will stop

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producing so the question I'm asking is

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can we stop wildlife poaching by

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destroying the market for illegal

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animals by flooding it with legal ones

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what if we made it legal and gave

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trained and capable people permits to

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take sustainable numbers of animals from

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the wild breed them sell them export

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them and then regulate the industry of

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course there'll be a financial value

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here and the profit would need to be

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channeled back into the system that

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monitors and regulates exports we could

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bring in strict and enforceable

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husbandry standards quarantine periods

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and animal welfare obligations effective

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record-keeping could reduce

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crossbreeding and inbreeding and help

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establish high quality reservoir

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populations with improved practices by

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taking the whole industry out of the

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black market and making it transparent

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and respectable and beneficial to the

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wildlife and if it's being managed well

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with regular gene flow from wild

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populations into the overseas captive

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populations may be the current

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populations of animals that are being

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inbred and in some cases poorly kept by

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well-meaning but naive pet owners maybe

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they'll become healthy and genetically

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useful reservoirs to act as backups for

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our endangered animals with the option

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of happy healthy legal pets motivate

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people to buy from a registered breeder

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or importer and with the availability of

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legally exported pets bring the price

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down to the point where the profit made

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from poaching just wasn't worth the risk

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of being caught I don't know maybe it

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wouldn't maybe legalizing it would just

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create another avenue for people to

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funnel illegal wildlife into a legal

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market where the buyer can be tricked

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into buying a poached lizard where they

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otherwise would have chosen not to and

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then what if it works and the price of a

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captive bred red-bellied black snake

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come solo that your previously valuable

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pet is now just another temporary

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novelty that you release into the wild

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when you become bored with it and then

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the Burmese pythons of the Florida

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Everglades are joined by invasive

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populations of tiger snakes and

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saltwater crocodiles there's definitely

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a downside to exotic pets and as much as

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I know I would earn everlasting brownie

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points if I was able to get my daughter

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a pet toucan I know it's not a good idea

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to let every nine-year-old who develops

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an interest by an endangered animal from

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the other side of the planet I don't

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know what the answer is here I feel like

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you to be great if we could have captive

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populations of every endangered species

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spread across the globe with thousands

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of people caring for them and breeding

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them and learning the ins and outs of

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what they need but for the most part

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professional zoos are already doing this

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is there any benefit to be had from

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private keepers in other countries

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having Australian wildlife and does

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there need to be is the fact that they

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want it enough to justify allowing them

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to have it in a way that minimizes harm

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especially since they're getting them

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anyway so clearly what we're doing now

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isn't stopping anyone how best can we

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minimise harm when there's a lucrative

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market for our wildlife some of which

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exists in ever diminishing populations

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please keep this question circulating in

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your mind and spare a bit of time every

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now and then to think over the value of

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our wildlife and how best we can work

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that to their advantage to keep the wild

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things in the wild places where they

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belong and out of the wild places where

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they don't

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[Music]

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everybody this is Kerry poppy from oh no

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Ross and Carrie really excited to join

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you this October for the big convention

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I've never been to Australia I hope it's

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good

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hope it exists the flat-earthers tell me

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it might not but I'm gonna be giving a

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talk about effective outreach and

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looking at movements from a perspective

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of how they evolve the different steps

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that they take and how you can outreach

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to different people depending on the

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stage that each movement is in is it

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still in its pseudo-science phase is it

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enough more of a spiritual phase is it

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in a paranormal phase I think that

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figuring that out really helps you

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figure out what the best way is to

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00:12:43,650 --> 00:12:41,590
outreach to each group and each person

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in that group so I hope that sounds

280
00:12:48,690 --> 00:12:46,030
interesting to you I think it'll be

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really fun and informative I'm basing it

282
00:12:54,630 --> 00:12:51,970
on lots of years of hanging out with

283
00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:54,640
people with extraordinary beliefs so it

284
00:12:59,080 --> 00:12:57,730
will be a good idea I hope I'll see you

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soon bye

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00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:14,910
[Music]

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here's a story that comes to us from the

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age the age comdata you links in the

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00:13:26,540 --> 00:13:22,980
sweet show notes by Tyler Lewis Icahn

290
00:13:30,030 --> 00:13:26,550
published on the 23rd of September 2018

291
00:13:31,710 --> 00:13:30,040
anti-vaccination activist turns expert

292
00:13:35,700 --> 00:13:31,720
witness in family court

293
00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:35,710
immunization brawl after courting

294
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:38,110
controversy with her PhD claiming an

295
00:13:43,290 --> 00:13:40,930
immunization conspiracy anti vaccination

296
00:13:46,290 --> 00:13:43,300
campaign a Julie Y Lehman is now

297
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providing her expert opinion in family

298
00:13:54,690 --> 00:13:51,970
matters before the courts the country's

299
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most prominent anti vaccination activist

300
00:14:00,570 --> 00:13:57,580
is claiming to be an expert witness in a

301
00:14:03,180 --> 00:14:00,580
family legal brawl over whether their

302
00:14:05,550 --> 00:14:03,190
children should be immunized Julie Y

303
00:14:08,370 --> 00:14:05,560
Lehmann a militant vaccination critic

304
00:14:11,340 --> 00:14:08,380
has lodged an expert witness statement

305
00:14:13,340 --> 00:14:11,350
in a Federal Circuit Court matter which

306
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:13,350
claims the federal government is

307
00:14:19,830 --> 00:14:16,450
suppressing evidence immunization is

308
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:19,840
ineffective and harmful dr. Wiley moon

309
00:14:24,060 --> 00:14:21,850
has provided the statement in support of

310
00:14:27,210 --> 00:14:24,070
a mother who does not want her children

311
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:27,220
vaccinated the father who does want his

312
00:14:31,230 --> 00:14:29,290
children immunized has drafted in the

313
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:31,240
former director of the National Center

314
00:14:36,330 --> 00:14:33,730
for immunization research Peter McIntyre

315
00:14:39,810 --> 00:14:36,340
to provide the court with his appraisal

316
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:39,820
of dr. Wiley man's claims Fairfax Media

317
00:14:45,660 --> 00:14:43,210
has chosen not to disclosed the details

318
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:45,670
of the family who are party to the

319
00:14:51,150 --> 00:14:47,890
dispute heard before the Federal Circuit

320
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:51,160
Court in Brisbane earlier this year dr.

321
00:14:55,950 --> 00:14:53,290
Wiley man who was controversially

322
00:14:58,220 --> 00:14:55,960
awarded a humanities PhD by the

323
00:15:00,570 --> 00:14:58,230
University of Wollongong for a thesis

324
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:00,580
which argued the World Health

325
00:15:04,620 --> 00:15:02,370
Organization colluded with

326
00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:04,630
pharmaceutical companies in a conspiracy

327
00:15:10,860 --> 00:15:08,110
to spruik unneeded vaccinations has no

328
00:15:13,620 --> 00:15:10,870
academic qualifications in medicine the

329
00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:13,630
publication of her PhD was criticized by

330
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:16,150
a chorus of medical academics and

331
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:18,610
scientists including the executive Dean

332
00:15:23,730 --> 00:15:20,530
of Wollongong University's science

333
00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:23,740
medicine and health faculty Allison

334
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:26,650
Jones the government's push to vaccinate

335
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:28,250
all children is quote

336
00:15:34,870 --> 00:15:31,370
coercion in a medical practice instead

337
00:15:37,390 --> 00:15:34,880
of informed consent and is contrary to

338
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:37,400
the good medical practice guidelines and

339
00:15:42,310 --> 00:15:39,890
all international human rights

340
00:15:44,740 --> 00:15:42,320
conventions end quote the statement

341
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:44,750
reads dr. Walley man's statement makes

342
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:46,730
numerous claims about how medical

343
00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:48,410
professionals and the pharmaceutical

344
00:15:52,350 --> 00:15:49,310
industry

345
00:15:55,180 --> 00:15:52,360
disregard the risks of vaccination the

346
00:15:57,330 --> 00:15:55,190
document obtained by Fairfax media

347
00:16:00,580 --> 00:15:57,340
accuses the government of not providing

348
00:16:03,550 --> 00:16:00,590
quote hard scientific evidence of safety

349
00:16:06,460 --> 00:16:03,560
and efficacy of vaccines because it

350
00:16:08,830 --> 00:16:06,470
cannot in quote quote if the father of

351
00:16:11,980 --> 00:16:08,840
these children cannot provide this

352
00:16:13,930 --> 00:16:11,990
evidence then fully informed consent has

353
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:13,940
not been provided and there is no

354
00:16:19,570 --> 00:16:16,250
evidence that vaccinating with the full

355
00:16:21,730 --> 00:16:19,580
schedule of 16 vaccines will be in the

356
00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:21,740
best interest of these children end

357
00:16:26,980 --> 00:16:24,320
quote the statement reads quote if the

358
00:16:30,190 --> 00:16:26,990
mother does not wish to vaccinate then

359
00:16:32,890 --> 00:16:30,200
the default position must be not to

360
00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:32,900
vaccinate end quote the office of Health

361
00:16:37,570 --> 00:16:34,880
Minister Greg Hunt declined to comment

362
00:16:40,150 --> 00:16:37,580
on the individual case which remains

363
00:16:42,340 --> 00:16:40,160
before the court but said quote he

364
00:16:44,980 --> 00:16:42,350
condemns the general claim that

365
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:44,990
vaccinations aren't safe and quote quote

366
00:16:51,190 --> 00:16:47,810
the science is in and the medical

367
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:51,200
experts advice is absolute vaccination

368
00:16:56,590 --> 00:16:54,530
saves lives and protects lives and they

369
00:16:59,320 --> 00:16:56,600
are an essential part of a healthy

370
00:17:02,080 --> 00:16:59,330
society in quote a spokesman for mr.

371
00:17:04,270 --> 00:17:02,090
hunt said quote we have no time for

372
00:17:06,820 --> 00:17:04,280
false claims made by the anti-vaxxers

373
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:06,830
end quote because the judgment is yet to

374
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:08,930
be handed down it is unclear how

375
00:17:15,610 --> 00:17:11,810
seriously the court took dr. Wylie man's

376
00:17:17,890 --> 00:17:15,620
claims tobacco claims of expertise dr.

377
00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:17,900
Weiman lists a number of presentations

378
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:19,670
and publications on the topic of

379
00:17:26,740 --> 00:17:23,210
immunization including a 2011 work in

380
00:17:28,630 --> 00:17:26,750
medical Veritas the website is run by

381
00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:28,640
Leonard G Horowitz who claims

382
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:31,520
vaccinations lead to quote genocide end

383
00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:33,200
quote and that the Rockefeller

384
00:17:38,860 --> 00:17:36,110
Foundation is engaged in quote musical

385
00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:38,870
cult control through the turing standard

386
00:17:44,109 --> 00:17:42,049
another presentation listed is an event

387
00:17:46,659 --> 00:17:44,119
the wily man herself organized as part

388
00:17:48,970 --> 00:17:46,669
of her vaccinations and decisions an

389
00:17:51,580 --> 00:17:48,980
outfit which campaigns against the

390
00:17:54,310 --> 00:17:51,590
government's immunization policies quote

391
00:17:56,590 --> 00:17:54,320
I am qualified to write this report

392
00:17:58,810 --> 00:17:56,600
because I am an independent person with

393
00:18:02,049 --> 00:17:58,820
expertise in public health and the

394
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:02,059
effects of toxins on the human body end

395
00:18:07,060 --> 00:18:04,090
quote she writes in a statement

396
00:18:09,549 --> 00:18:07,070
Patrick Parkinson the head of the

397
00:18:12,850 --> 00:18:09,559
University of Queensland TC Burnie

398
00:18:15,519 --> 00:18:12,860
School of Law said quote there is a very

399
00:18:17,529 --> 00:18:15,529
rigorous test of admissibility and quote

400
00:18:20,409 --> 00:18:17,539
in order for an expert witness to be

401
00:18:22,479 --> 00:18:20,419
given credit by the court quote they

402
00:18:24,970 --> 00:18:22,489
must demonstrate they have expertise in

403
00:18:27,340 --> 00:18:24,980
the area and they must demonstrate their

404
00:18:29,289 --> 00:18:27,350
views and recommendations based upon

405
00:18:31,989 --> 00:18:29,299
that expertise in quote professor

406
00:18:34,539 --> 00:18:31,999
Parkinson said quote there will almost

407
00:18:36,460 --> 00:18:34,549
certainly be a challenge to the

408
00:18:38,859 --> 00:18:36,470
admissibility of this report as an

409
00:18:41,859 --> 00:18:38,869
expert one and two her recommendations

410
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:41,869
flow from an expert knowledge this seems

411
00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:43,970
to be the law working properly in quota

412
00:18:48,009 --> 00:18:46,129
lawyers acting for the mother of the

413
00:18:49,869 --> 00:18:48,019
children declined to comment while

414
00:18:52,090 --> 00:18:49,879
attempts to contact lawyers acting for

415
00:18:54,009 --> 00:18:52,100
the father were unsuccessful dr. Weil

416
00:18:56,349 --> 00:18:54,019
Eamonn did not respond to multiple

417
00:18:58,629 --> 00:18:56,359
requests for comment professor McIntyre

418
00:19:00,970 --> 00:18:58,639
who is now a senior doctor at the West

419
00:19:03,249 --> 00:19:00,980
Meade Children's Hospital told Fairfax

420
00:19:05,499 --> 00:19:03,259
that Wollongong University quote must

421
00:19:08,409 --> 00:19:05,509
bear the major responsibility for

422
00:19:10,659 --> 00:19:08,419
manifestly inadequate supervision end

423
00:19:12,609 --> 00:19:10,669
quote quote it is clear from even

424
00:19:15,070 --> 00:19:12,619
cursory examination that why humans

425
00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:15,080
thesis although raising some legitimate

426
00:19:20,169 --> 00:19:17,840
questions about gaps in both the process

427
00:19:22,659 --> 00:19:20,179
and transparency of immunization policy

428
00:19:25,149 --> 00:19:22,669
development is based on a highly

429
00:19:27,759 --> 00:19:25,159
selective and poorly informed review of

430
00:19:30,430 --> 00:19:27,769
the literature driven by the imperative

431
00:19:32,889 --> 00:19:30,440
to support predetermined conclusions

432
00:19:33,940 --> 00:19:32,899
end quote he said quote this is a

433
00:19:36,849 --> 00:19:33,950
cautionary tale

434
00:19:39,369 --> 00:19:36,859
not just for Wollongong University which

435
00:19:41,289 --> 00:19:39,379
continues to maintain that supervision

436
00:19:43,479 --> 00:19:41,299
and examination of the thesis was

437
00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:43,489
appropriate despite strong contrary

438
00:19:47,710 --> 00:19:45,289
opinions from its own staff and

439
00:19:49,629 --> 00:19:47,720
prominent experts on immunization but

440
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:49,639
for all Australian universities end

441
00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:53,090
quote the awarding of that PhD in early

442
00:19:58,660 --> 00:19:56,000
2016 was harshly criticized by

443
00:20:01,930 --> 00:19:58,670
peak clinical societies representing

444
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:01,940
microbiology virology immunology and

445
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:04,610
infectious diseases as well as

446
00:20:13,180 --> 00:20:10,640
scientists to staff nozzle and that

447
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:13,190
story comes to us from the age of age

448
00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:15,170
come to you with links in this week's

449
00:20:20,590 --> 00:20:18,710
show notes and it's worth reminding you

450
00:20:23,250 --> 00:20:20,600
that in 2016

451
00:20:26,110 --> 00:20:23,260
Julie while Eamonn Ryan mutton and the

452
00:20:28,980 --> 00:20:26,120
Faculty of Social Sciences at the

453
00:20:33,790 --> 00:20:28,990
University of Wollongong was awarded the

454
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:33,800
Australian skeptics bent spoon award for

455
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:36,290
awarding volume and a doctorate on the

456
00:20:42,190 --> 00:20:38,960
basis of a PhD thesis riddled with

457
00:20:44,710 --> 00:20:42,200
errors miss statements poor and

458
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:44,720
unsupported evidence and conspiratorial

459
00:21:03,950 --> 00:20:46,530
thinking

460
00:21:08,039 --> 00:21:03,960
[Music]

461
00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:08,049
dr. Harriet Hall MD no into thousands as

462
00:21:14,220 --> 00:21:11,110
the skeptic a retired family physician

463
00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:14,230
and former Air Force flight surgeon she

464
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:16,270
writes about medicine so-called

465
00:21:21,860 --> 00:21:18,000
complementary and alternative medicine

466
00:21:24,930 --> 00:21:21,870
science pakery and critical thinking

467
00:21:27,210 --> 00:21:24,940
Harriet now has a free course a series

468
00:21:30,539 --> 00:21:27,220
of 10 video lectures on science-based

469
00:21:32,580 --> 00:21:30,549
medicine and alternative medicine the

470
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:32,590
videos and an accompanying course guide

471
00:21:39,539 --> 00:21:34,720
can be found by following the link at

472
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:39,549
skeptic info or by visiting web Randi's

473
00:21:47,870 --> 00:21:44,130
org slash educational - modules dot

474
00:21:50,130 --> 00:21:47,880
html' topics covered in the series are

475
00:21:51,419 --> 00:21:50,140
science-based medicine vs.

476
00:21:55,159 --> 00:21:51,429
evidence-based medicine

477
00:21:58,440 --> 00:21:55,169
what is Kam chiropractic acupuncture

478
00:22:01,230 --> 00:21:58,450
homeopathy naturopathy and herbal

479
00:22:03,930 --> 00:22:01,240
medicine energy medicine miscellaneous

480
00:22:06,930 --> 00:22:03,940
alternatives pitfalls in research and

481
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:06,940
science based medicine in the media and

482
00:22:13,260 --> 00:22:10,690
politics Harriette covers each topic in

483
00:22:16,530 --> 00:22:13,270
a matter-of-fact no-nonsense way that

484
00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:16,540
sure to educate and entertain skeptic

485
00:22:30,210 --> 00:22:18,640
dot info

486
00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:35,410
years may not spooky action at the

487
00:22:39,730 --> 00:22:37,840
distance

488
00:22:42,070 --> 00:22:39,740
well people you might have heard about

489
00:22:43,450 --> 00:22:42,080
wires or seen about them or know someone

490
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:43,460
who's had to ring them up and get help

491
00:22:46,870 --> 00:22:44,930
from them but I've got two people from

492
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:46,880
wires right now and let us know what it

493
00:22:56,290 --> 00:22:51,130
stands for again wildlife information

494
00:22:56,620 --> 00:22:56,300
rescue education services and who we got

495
00:23:00,520 --> 00:22:56,630
here

496
00:23:02,470 --> 00:23:00,530
I'm Debra I'm chairperson of the wires

497
00:23:05,770 --> 00:23:02,480
Northwest branch looking after that part

498
00:23:08,590 --> 00:23:05,780
of Sydney and I'm Caroline and I'm the

499
00:23:10,300 --> 00:23:08,600
coordinator for wires Northwest actually

500
00:23:12,250 --> 00:23:10,310
first question about bats how do you get

501
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:12,260
their poo off your car easily because

502
00:23:16,570 --> 00:23:13,730
they seem to have a very corrosive kind

503
00:23:18,730 --> 00:23:16,580
of poo probably wash the car immediately

504
00:23:20,290 --> 00:23:18,740
when you get up in the morning why is

505
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:20,300
that poo so corrosive is because they

506
00:23:27,340 --> 00:23:22,730
acidic fruit or something they do eat

507
00:23:29,140 --> 00:23:27,350
fruit and pollen and there it passes

508
00:23:30,910 --> 00:23:29,150
through the bodies really quickly sort

509
00:23:32,530 --> 00:23:30,920
of things so it actually just basically

510
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:32,540
goes straight through from the time that

511
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:34,730
they write sounds like throwing a raw

512
00:23:39,310 --> 00:23:36,050
orange on your car that's what they're

513
00:23:43,870 --> 00:23:39,320
really and why did you get involved in

514
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:43,880
wires um I retired and I was looking for

515
00:23:49,330 --> 00:23:47,810
things to do and I was I grew up with a

516
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:49,340
father who was a bird watcher and used

517
00:23:53,860 --> 00:23:51,650
to take his bush and we so we learned to

518
00:23:55,690 --> 00:23:53,870
appreciate wildlife and I wanted to do

519
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:55,700
something for wildlife because I think

520
00:23:59,590 --> 00:23:58,010
humans are destroying habitats and

521
00:24:01,270 --> 00:23:59,600
Wildlife is suffering

522
00:24:05,170 --> 00:24:01,280
that's for sure what attracted you to

523
00:24:10,090 --> 00:24:05,180
bats particularly I started the wires

524
00:24:11,950 --> 00:24:10,100
course and I love all animals really but

525
00:24:13,810 --> 00:24:11,960
with the bats they were talking about

526
00:24:16,270 --> 00:24:13,820
raising the baby bats and that you

527
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:16,280
actually have to nurture and love them

528
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:19,250
and I thought I could do that easily and

529
00:24:24,310 --> 00:24:21,650
so that's what actually attracted me to

530
00:24:26,260 --> 00:24:24,320
the bats in the first place and once I

531
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:26,270
actually started learning about bats and

532
00:24:29,860 --> 00:24:27,650
caring for bats they're just the most

533
00:24:32,590 --> 00:24:29,870
amazing animals they're intelligent

534
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:32,600
they're funny they're they look after

535
00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:35,120
the young incredibly well

536
00:24:38,590 --> 00:24:37,310
so it's flying foxes you've got your

537
00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:38,600
microbots they're also really

538
00:24:44,020 --> 00:24:41,510
intelligent they're incredible how they

539
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:44,030
actually survive and what they can what

540
00:24:47,740 --> 00:24:45,290
they do to survive

541
00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:47,750
because you mainly deal with Australian

542
00:24:53,860 --> 00:24:50,720
indie animals here so so would it go to

543
00:24:55,630 --> 00:24:53,870
be counted no no goats no dogs no cats

544
00:24:56,770 --> 00:24:55,640
all right we will there's plenty of

545
00:24:59,380 --> 00:24:56,780
people that can deal with them anyway

546
00:25:02,440 --> 00:24:59,390
isn't it yeah yeah yeah so just native

547
00:25:03,730 --> 00:25:02,450
wildlife perhaps a large gray or red

548
00:25:06,190 --> 00:25:03,740
kangaroo might be something you had to

549
00:25:09,490 --> 00:25:06,200
deal with yeah we do get kangaroos in

550
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:09,500
North West Sydney even in the suburbs in

551
00:25:13,090 --> 00:25:11,690
fact I think we've got a rescue waiting

552
00:25:14,890 --> 00:25:13,100
for a rescue at the moment for a

553
00:25:16,540 --> 00:25:14,900
kangaroo who's on the side of the road

554
00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:16,550
it's been hit by a car and that's really

555
00:25:24,460 --> 00:25:21,110
sad and we we always go out and check

556
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:24,470
kangaroos because there may be a Joey in

557
00:25:28,660 --> 00:25:27,050
the pouch of a dead mother so then we

558
00:25:31,810 --> 00:25:28,670
bring the Joey's into care and look

559
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:31,820
after them and that's a really demanding

560
00:25:36,610 --> 00:25:33,890
job it's sort of like eight feeds a day

561
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:36,620
for a very young Joey and they have to

562
00:25:40,420 --> 00:25:38,930
be toileted you have a high success rate

563
00:25:43,540 --> 00:25:40,430
because I imagine sometimes it would be

564
00:25:45,250 --> 00:25:43,550
difficult to bring them up yeah and that

565
00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:45,260
they get stressed very easily and then

566
00:25:48,740 --> 00:25:46,880
they get sick so I have a huge man

567
00:25:52,010 --> 00:25:48,750
information for our our

568
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:52,020
ruk errors and they need to be in care

569
00:25:55,789 --> 00:25:53,730
for about two years before they're old

570
00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:55,799
enough to be released so you need

571
00:26:02,090 --> 00:25:58,650
somebody with big acreage so anybody out

572
00:26:03,950 --> 00:26:02,100
there who'd like to raise kangaroo

573
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:03,960
Joey's to talk to your local wildlife

574
00:26:07,940 --> 00:26:06,570
organization remember it's a lot of work

575
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:07,950
remember kangaroo is just not for

576
00:26:13,100 --> 00:26:11,370
Christmas I believe they say now people

577
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:13,110
I mean I would look at a koala and go

578
00:26:16,159 --> 00:26:14,730
I'm not going to pick that up but people

579
00:26:18,140 --> 00:26:16,169
would make the mistake of thinking that

580
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:18,150
a koala is something you can pick up but

581
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:19,890
that would be not the case

582
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:23,370
no I were to talk about koalas and and

583
00:26:27,860 --> 00:26:25,710
they were saying koala calls of flaws

584
00:26:30,380 --> 00:26:27,870
are recurved they kind of curve in and

585
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:30,390
they can kind of really grab you I had a

586
00:26:36,770 --> 00:26:34,130
I never done a koala rescue but I was

587
00:26:39,620 --> 00:26:36,780
running a course in the country once in

588
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:39,630
a koala ran across the road in front of

589
00:26:43,789 --> 00:26:41,370
us so of course we rushed after it to

590
00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:43,799
make sure it was okay and luckily there

591
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:46,110
was a koala rescue group nearby and we

592
00:26:52,159 --> 00:26:49,230
rang them up and and they said if it's

593
00:26:55,370 --> 00:26:52,169
got a clean white bottom and it's bright

594
00:26:57,140 --> 00:26:55,380
and alert then it's probably fine so we

595
00:26:59,960 --> 00:26:57,150
just ran up the nearest tree and we left

596
00:27:01,640 --> 00:26:59,970
it alone so it's the white bottom to

597
00:27:03,230 --> 00:27:01,650
show that it's clean and looking after

598
00:27:05,930 --> 00:27:03,240
itself what does that mean yeah an

599
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:05,940
unhealthy koala has the yellow stains on

600
00:27:10,940 --> 00:27:07,730
its bottom because it has like diarrhea

601
00:27:13,490 --> 00:27:10,950
yeah so we learn all the time and it's

602
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:13,500
what I love about wires is every animal

603
00:27:20,029 --> 00:27:15,210
I rescue

604
00:27:22,669 --> 00:27:20,039
I learned something new so sorry that's

605
00:27:31,490 --> 00:27:22,679
my phone that is cool that's a ring turn

606
00:27:33,350 --> 00:27:31,500
people into that and where can people

607
00:27:34,659 --> 00:27:33,360
find you online and have a look at what

608
00:27:38,180 --> 00:27:34,669
you're all about

609
00:27:39,769 --> 00:27:38,190
yau is a website and there's lots of

610
00:27:41,930 --> 00:27:39,779
useful information on the website

611
00:27:44,389 --> 00:27:41,940
including how to become a wise volunteer

612
00:27:46,669 --> 00:27:44,399
and fact sheets about things like how to

613
00:27:50,529 --> 00:27:46,679
deal with possums and brush turkeys and

614
00:27:54,919 --> 00:27:53,600
I'm here with dr. grace to tell whom doh

615
00:27:55,460 --> 00:27:54,929
what is your degree in and where did you

616
00:27:59,269 --> 00:27:55,470
get it

617
00:28:01,100 --> 00:27:59,279
I got a at Sydney University and I got

618
00:28:05,230 --> 00:28:01,110
it it's a Bachelor of veterinary science

619
00:28:07,310 --> 00:28:05,240
now they've switched over to a DVM so a

620
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:07,320
postgraduate course now is how you do

621
00:28:10,909 --> 00:28:08,970
better at Sydney Uni but previously it

622
00:28:14,330 --> 00:28:10,919
was a bachelor's so I did that and they

623
00:28:16,250 --> 00:28:14,340
lost in 2015 I graduated and what

624
00:28:18,110 --> 00:28:16,260
attracted you to that I was at a love of

625
00:28:19,490 --> 00:28:18,120
animals or you want to do the science

626
00:28:21,350 --> 00:28:19,500
involved what was it that made you said

627
00:28:23,690 --> 00:28:21,360
that's the one yeah big bones really

628
00:28:27,350 --> 00:28:23,700
I've always loved animals always had you

629
00:28:30,019 --> 00:28:27,360
know pets as as I grew up and when I was

630
00:28:32,990 --> 00:28:30,029
seeing you 10 I was doing school over in

631
00:28:34,970 --> 00:28:33,000
England and as part of school they make

632
00:28:37,250 --> 00:28:34,980
you do you know work experience at

633
00:28:38,659 --> 00:28:37,260
wherever you would prefer and I went to

634
00:28:40,130 --> 00:28:38,669
a vet clinic there and found that really

635
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:40,140
interesting and thought okay well that's

636
00:28:44,210 --> 00:28:42,090
one way to work with that and also let's

637
00:28:46,820 --> 00:28:44,220
explore that path a little bit more and

638
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:46,830
the science behind it and you know

639
00:28:50,659 --> 00:28:48,450
treating animals is also really

640
00:28:52,370 --> 00:28:50,669
interesting as well so it went down that

641
00:28:54,740 --> 00:28:52,380
path and then once you work in general

642
00:28:58,789 --> 00:28:54,750
practice you get another idea of how it

643
00:29:02,240 --> 00:28:58,799
is and go it's like a knock doctor or a

644
00:29:04,130 --> 00:29:02,250
nurse you did the you see animals in

645
00:29:06,289 --> 00:29:04,140
distress all the time so how do you deal

646
00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:06,299
with that as event yeah I mean it's hard

647
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:08,880
and you know aspects we do also have to

648
00:29:13,580 --> 00:29:11,130
euthanize pets you know when they're

649
00:29:16,430 --> 00:29:13,590
really sick or they're old but you know

650
00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:16,440
it's always some people struggle with it

651
00:29:21,139 --> 00:29:18,809
more than others just like everyone

652
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:21,149
your strengths in some areas different

653
00:29:24,139 --> 00:29:22,710
at the end of the day you've got to

654
00:29:28,149 --> 00:29:24,149
remember you're doing the best for that

655
00:29:31,369 --> 00:29:28,159
that patient and ending suffering and

656
00:29:33,110 --> 00:29:31,379
for welfare and quality of life as well

657
00:29:35,180 --> 00:29:33,120
so you know it's you've always got to

658
00:29:38,239 --> 00:29:35,190
look at it that way otherwise it can you

659
00:29:40,820 --> 00:29:38,249
know it can get hard but you know you're

660
00:29:43,060 --> 00:29:40,830
trained to do the best for that animal

661
00:29:45,649 --> 00:29:43,070
and it make them healthy and happy so

662
00:29:47,509 --> 00:29:45,659
and grace even within your lifetime and

663
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:47,519
certainly within mine the attitude to

664
00:29:52,190 --> 00:29:48,960
what amount of treatment should be given

665
00:29:54,409 --> 00:29:52,200
to a pet has it changed like in the 70s

666
00:29:55,999 --> 00:29:54,419
if you had to spend $200 on an animal

667
00:29:57,889 --> 00:29:56,009
that would just be you wouldn't even

668
00:29:59,779 --> 00:29:57,899
think about it but now people do limb

669
00:30:01,730 --> 00:29:59,789
Murray constructions and and theirs is

670
00:30:03,649 --> 00:30:01,740
their dialysis for cats even I mean

671
00:30:05,090 --> 00:30:03,659
really expensive treatments people can

672
00:30:07,430 --> 00:30:05,100
spend I don't know you would know how

673
00:30:09,470 --> 00:30:07,440
much it is but like $8,000 or up on

674
00:30:10,999 --> 00:30:09,480
their cat and that would be unheard of

675
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:11,009
before yeah definitely

676
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:12,570
the times are definitely changed with

677
00:30:17,899 --> 00:30:15,210
that and and I guess it's also that the

678
00:30:19,249 --> 00:30:17,909
pets are now I guess more really

679
00:30:20,930 --> 00:30:19,259
integrating parts of the family you know

680
00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:20,940
they're a member of the family so you

681
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:22,559
want to do them as much as you can and

682
00:30:26,299 --> 00:30:24,480
pet insurance definitely is worthwhile

683
00:30:28,369 --> 00:30:26,309
in case those sort of things happened

684
00:30:30,169 --> 00:30:28,379
and there is a $10,000 surgery or

685
00:30:32,299 --> 00:30:30,179
treatment required so pet insurance

686
00:30:34,009 --> 00:30:32,309
again is a new thing to Australia as

687
00:30:36,259 --> 00:30:34,019
well it was in England and America a lot

688
00:30:37,669 --> 00:30:36,269
earlier on and later to come to

689
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:37,679
Australia but it definitely helps with

690
00:30:41,629 --> 00:30:39,570
those sort of situations where it's

691
00:30:42,980 --> 00:30:41,639
gonna be a big bill but yeah it

692
00:30:45,350 --> 00:30:42,990
definitely has changed over the years

693
00:30:49,909 --> 00:30:45,360
sure what's the strangest hey behavior

694
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:49,919
you observed in a household pet yeah

695
00:30:59,050 --> 00:30:57,220
that's a very good question I know

696
00:31:01,080 --> 00:30:59,060
because you get a lot there but as well

697
00:31:03,370 --> 00:31:01,090
as that you get people you get some

698
00:31:04,510 --> 00:31:03,380
pseudo science in the area as well to

699
00:31:06,310 --> 00:31:04,520
get people think that they could they

700
00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:06,320
can mind Amell with the cat or they can

701
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:07,910
psychically read the cat and that kind

702
00:31:10,930 --> 00:31:09,290
of thing and as in humans there's

703
00:31:13,330 --> 00:31:10,940
probably no evidence of that is there no

704
00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:13,340
we aren't being bets we do go off the

705
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:18,080
science and studying them so I think as

706
00:31:22,990 --> 00:31:21,290
we get into the science and help them as

707
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:23,000
much as we can and where can we find you

708
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:24,890
online and what you do online yes so

709
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:27,410
we're at sea animal behavior service in

710
00:31:31,690 --> 00:31:29,690
Seaforth and we also consult out of

711
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:31,700
animal referral hospital in Homebush and

712
00:31:38,770 --> 00:31:36,050
our websites wws ABS so sydney animal

713
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:38,780
behavior service combo you dr. grace

714
00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:40,610
they tell their who has such weird

715
00:31:43,690 --> 00:31:42,110
experiences with animals she camping the

716
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:43,700
term I don't blame you because every day

717
00:31:49,450 --> 00:31:45,530
must be an adventure yes too many to

718
00:31:51,250 --> 00:31:49,460
count really I'm here dr. Matthew

719
00:31:53,110 --> 00:31:51,260
Bobbitt who like myself as I mentioned

720
00:31:54,820 --> 00:31:53,120
earlier is a fan of the pygmy hippo the

721
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:54,830
only animal in nature it looks like it's

722
00:31:59,770 --> 00:31:57,050
wearing a skinny that's true indeed I

723
00:32:03,640 --> 00:31:59,780
love hippos and the Oriental oriental

724
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:03,650
small-clawed otters that I like of

725
00:32:07,180 --> 00:32:05,210
course they are well you know anything

726
00:32:07,690 --> 00:32:07,190
that's actually unusual and strange I'm

727
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:07,700
in there

728
00:32:11,110 --> 00:32:09,650
yeah well the assassin about what's ago

729
00:32:13,210 --> 00:32:11,120
that is it a native Australian thing

730
00:32:15,310 --> 00:32:13,220
yeah absolutely assassin bugs are found

731
00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:15,320
all over the world so one of the things

732
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:16,910
that people don't realize is that when

733
00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:18,890
they use the term bug I think that's any

734
00:32:22,060 --> 00:32:20,510
kind of creepy crawly but it's not

735
00:32:24,250 --> 00:32:22,070
actually true so there's actually a

736
00:32:26,380 --> 00:32:24,260
particular group of insects that have

737
00:32:28,630 --> 00:32:26,390
mouth parts like a drinking straw which

738
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:28,640
like piercing the plants normally but

739
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:30,890
assassin bugs exception to the rule

740
00:32:34,570 --> 00:32:32,720
because they're predators and they use

741
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:34,580
that straw to pierce other animals

742
00:32:38,650 --> 00:32:36,170
that's not the bug that like squirts

743
00:32:42,570 --> 00:32:38,660
water at is that what I've seen the bug

744
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:46,690
that's great you know if you had a great

745
00:32:50,170 --> 00:32:48,650
time here today the one question that I

746
00:32:53,020 --> 00:32:50,180
thought really got the everyone fired up

747
00:32:55,330 --> 00:32:53,030
was the wombat mange question that there

748
00:32:57,730 --> 00:32:55,340
was a lady who asked us what to do about

749
00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:57,740
a wombat that is around her area that

750
00:33:01,080 --> 00:32:59,200
has mange and

751
00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:01,090
do you do that because I can you said

752
00:33:04,259 --> 00:33:02,710
whatever you do do not chase one back

753
00:33:05,460 --> 00:33:04,269
yeah that's right that's correct in fact

754
00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:05,470
I've got a really nice story for that

755
00:33:09,690 --> 00:33:07,840
the first one back that I ever saw I

756
00:33:12,060 --> 00:33:09,700
actually saw it on the track and I got

757
00:33:13,350 --> 00:33:12,070
so excited that I actually wanted to

758
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:13,360
take a photo of it and then it moved up

759
00:33:18,090 --> 00:33:15,250
the track and all I could think of was

760
00:33:20,370 --> 00:33:18,100
to chase it and you know that wombats

761
00:33:23,730 --> 00:33:20,380
are incredibly fast or it left me in the

762
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:23,740
dust absolutely I think in a straight

763
00:33:26,159 --> 00:33:24,970
line speed they can do like 30

764
00:33:27,870 --> 00:33:26,169
kilometres an hour or something like

765
00:33:29,070 --> 00:33:27,880
that like some crazy thing like that so

766
00:33:31,590 --> 00:33:29,080
it's that point trying to chase in the

767
00:33:33,690 --> 00:33:31,600
first place and then they have just like

768
00:33:35,340 --> 00:33:33,700
solid muscle right so do they have claws

769
00:33:37,529 --> 00:33:35,350
for the digging that you don't want to

770
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:37,539
be connected with yeah absolutely so the

771
00:33:41,279 --> 00:33:39,730
claws you know they're clawing through

772
00:33:44,340 --> 00:33:41,289
making their burrows I'm really tough to

773
00:33:46,230 --> 00:33:44,350
it and so they're actually and one bats

774
00:33:47,789 --> 00:33:46,240
in general too just because it feel a

775
00:33:51,330 --> 00:33:47,799
muscle they also have like incredibly

776
00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:51,340
hard backsides as well so the defensive

777
00:33:54,750 --> 00:33:53,289
strategy is that they they if they

778
00:33:56,070 --> 00:33:54,760
attacked they actually stick their head

779
00:33:57,750 --> 00:33:56,080
into the Burrow and they just put their

780
00:33:59,730 --> 00:33:57,760
body out and say everything twice attack

781
00:34:01,529 --> 00:33:59,740
it just can't do anything so if they've

782
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:01,539
got mange the advice was to go to the

783
00:34:05,549 --> 00:34:03,370
wombat specialist website and make a

784
00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:05,559
little device of some sort

785
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:07,360
over there is a call to burrow what does

786
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:09,490
it call tomorrow and so when it goes in

787
00:34:12,809 --> 00:34:11,169
and out it just gets a bit of drip of

788
00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:12,819
whatever it is onto it because its main

789
00:34:16,319 --> 00:34:14,169
just sort of a yeast infection for the

790
00:34:18,329 --> 00:34:16,329
skin you know that yeah that's right but

791
00:34:20,069 --> 00:34:18,339
it creates yeah you imagine if you've

792
00:34:21,210 --> 00:34:20,079
got an itch if you've had like

793
00:34:23,069 --> 00:34:21,220
chickenpox or something like that

794
00:34:25,050 --> 00:34:23,079
it drives you insane and it's the same

795
00:34:26,399 --> 00:34:25,060
with wombats and it's a horrible thing

796
00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:26,409
to see them in it can spread through

797
00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:28,720
their population as well so you know if

798
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:30,730
you see it yeah you want to do something

799
00:34:33,990 --> 00:34:32,169
about it whether it's contacting their

800
00:34:35,609 --> 00:34:34,000
local authorities and local wildlife

801
00:34:38,010 --> 00:34:35,619
people to actually come down into it

802
00:34:39,030 --> 00:34:38,020
because they're amazing animals and you

803
00:34:40,619 --> 00:34:39,040
know this is the only country in the

804
00:34:42,240 --> 00:34:40,629
world you can see them where could we

805
00:34:43,740 --> 00:34:42,250
find you online and what you do online

806
00:34:45,690 --> 00:34:43,750
well I'm based at Macquarie University

807
00:34:47,879 --> 00:34:45,700
so you can look up my web site which i

808
00:34:50,430 --> 00:34:47,889
think is W very rock conflict ecology

809
00:34:52,589 --> 00:34:50,440
they'll come and you can find out about

810
00:34:54,119 --> 00:34:52,599
my research there but otherwise can

811
00:34:56,149 --> 00:34:54,129
search my name look and I know your love

812
00:34:57,650 --> 00:34:56,159
all animals but is there one animal

813
00:34:58,880 --> 00:34:57,660
like I'll knock it off enough already

814
00:35:00,770 --> 00:34:58,890
because I know you've got a favorite

815
00:35:01,940 --> 00:35:00,780
animal the pygmy hippo sorta but what's

816
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:01,950
the one you go I'll look could we have a

817
00:35:06,170 --> 00:35:04,770
bit less publicity for that it's not

818
00:35:07,819 --> 00:35:06,180
very lot of publicity the only one that

819
00:35:10,849 --> 00:35:07,829
I probably would struggle a little bit

820
00:35:12,260 --> 00:35:10,859
with our tips and just boutiques is

821
00:35:13,819 --> 00:35:12,270
because I know that they can't they kind

822
00:35:15,740 --> 00:35:13,829
of burrow into it it's not much they're

823
00:35:17,930 --> 00:35:15,750
burrowing into it it's just that it's

824
00:35:20,630 --> 00:35:17,940
it's hard to imagine where they are

825
00:35:23,630 --> 00:35:20,640
sometimes in the bush but but I can

826
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:23,640
still greatly appreciate how they

827
00:35:26,660 --> 00:35:24,690
managed to do what they do

828
00:35:28,579 --> 00:35:26,670
let's do that do they help break things

829
00:35:30,020 --> 00:35:28,589
down what is what sips is part of the

830
00:35:31,849 --> 00:35:30,030
egg what's the reason for being in the

831
00:35:33,319 --> 00:35:31,859
ecosystem because to me they're just an

832
00:35:36,289 --> 00:35:33,329
annoyed cattle and us and that's their

833
00:35:37,549 --> 00:35:36,299
job look I can go I can come up with

834
00:35:40,630 --> 00:35:37,559
something but I just say they're

835
00:35:43,190 --> 00:35:40,640
completely annoying that's their purpose

836
00:35:54,730 --> 00:35:43,200
thank you dr. Matthews has been a

837
00:35:59,359 --> 00:35:57,410
hi I'm Darrin McKee one of the hosts of

838
00:36:01,099 --> 00:35:59,369
the reality check each week my co-host

839
00:36:02,690 --> 00:36:01,109
and I explore a range of controversies

840
00:36:04,190 --> 00:36:02,700
and curiosities using science and

841
00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:04,200
critical thinking you can find us on

842
00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:06,089
iTunes your favorite podcasting platform

843
00:36:09,289 --> 00:36:07,680
and on Facebook by searching for the

844
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:09,299
reality check or by following us on

845
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:11,760
Twitter at TRC underscore podcast until

846
00:36:24,589 --> 00:36:13,440
then keep an open mind but not so open

847
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:24,599
your brain falls out it's the raw

848
00:36:37,549 --> 00:36:35,010
skeptic report with heidi roberts byron

849
00:36:41,109 --> 00:36:37,559
bay has become the anti-vaxxers paradise

850
00:36:48,410 --> 00:36:41,119
by Jane Hansen in The Daily Telegraph

851
00:36:50,690 --> 00:36:48,420
dot-com au September 23 2018 last week

852
00:36:53,589 --> 00:36:50,700
my 13 year old son had his second

853
00:36:57,319 --> 00:36:53,599
Gardasil or HPV vaccine

854
00:36:59,120 --> 00:36:57,329
he had this shocking side effect he will

855
00:37:02,539 --> 00:36:59,130
now be protected from a series of

856
00:37:05,660 --> 00:37:02,549
cancers caused by the HPV virus and he

857
00:37:08,019 --> 00:37:05,670
will not pass the virus on to others the

858
00:37:10,460 --> 00:37:08,029
very same day the Byron Shire Council

859
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:10,470
overwhelmingly voted to continue to

860
00:37:16,420 --> 00:37:12,930
allow council owned venues to be used by

861
00:37:18,890 --> 00:37:16,430
an Tyvek suits to spread misinformation

862
00:37:21,650 --> 00:37:18,900
we all know the Shia has the worst

863
00:37:24,620 --> 00:37:21,660
vaccination rates in the country the

864
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:24,630
green rolling hills act like an echo

865
00:37:32,359 --> 00:37:27,930
chamber and conspiracy theories are as

866
00:37:34,579 --> 00:37:32,369
common as gluten intolerance 'as it is

867
00:37:37,460 --> 00:37:34,589
no secret as to why it has the lowest

868
00:37:39,250 --> 00:37:37,470
vaccination rates anti-vaxxers have made

869
00:37:42,819 --> 00:37:39,260
an industry out of it

870
00:37:45,620 --> 00:37:42,829
natural therapists organic food stores

871
00:37:49,700 --> 00:37:45,630
doulas Wellness Coaches mothers groups

872
00:37:52,190 --> 00:37:49,710
yoga tents Instagram influences and even

873
00:37:53,170 --> 00:37:52,200
sections of the local media feed off

874
00:37:55,750 --> 00:37:53,180
each other

875
00:37:59,420 --> 00:37:55,760
fermenting a bubbling broth of

876
00:38:02,410 --> 00:37:59,430
confirmation bias last year

877
00:38:05,390 --> 00:38:02,420
Jim organics owned by Adam Kingsley

878
00:38:07,549 --> 00:38:05,400
sponsored David avocado Wolfe to come to

879
00:38:10,699 --> 00:38:07,559
Byron to spread his flat

880
00:38:13,699 --> 00:38:10,709
twisdom mr. Kingsley told the Sunday

881
00:38:16,519 --> 00:38:13,709
Telegraph he hoped wolf would spread his

882
00:38:20,709 --> 00:38:16,529
anti-vaccine message because he too was

883
00:38:23,569 --> 00:38:20,719
proudly anti-vaccine the event sold out

884
00:38:26,509 --> 00:38:23,579
while shocked you mentor ease like VAX

885
00:38:28,759 --> 00:38:26,519
to get panned and canned by other

886
00:38:31,069 --> 00:38:28,769
publicly owned venues around Australia

887
00:38:33,289 --> 00:38:31,079
because they perpetuate myths that

888
00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:33,299
undermine a perfectly safe vaccination

889
00:38:38,989 --> 00:38:36,209
program byron in the words of greens

890
00:38:42,949 --> 00:38:38,999
Mayor Simon Richardson welcomes the

891
00:38:46,009 --> 00:38:42,959
difficult conversations councillor Paul

892
00:38:47,689 --> 00:38:46,019
Spooner logically argued to council that

893
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:47,699
since the Australian vaccination

894
00:38:52,309 --> 00:38:50,249
skeptics Network the original anti

895
00:38:55,339 --> 00:38:52,319
vaccination network born in the Byron

896
00:38:57,079 --> 00:38:55,349
Shire in the 1990s had a public health

897
00:38:58,849 --> 00:38:57,089
warning put out by the healthcare

898
00:39:01,579 --> 00:38:58,859
Complaints Commission about its

899
00:39:03,979 --> 00:39:01,589
misinformation council should not be

900
00:39:07,009 --> 00:39:03,989
facilitating the AVN when it hires out

901
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:07,019
council halls to air films like vac

902
00:39:12,140 --> 00:39:09,650
stand sacrificial virgins

903
00:39:14,539 --> 00:39:12,150
Spooner caught whooping cough from his

904
00:39:16,939 --> 00:39:14,549
own unvaccinated grandchild some years

905
00:39:20,509 --> 00:39:16,949
ago and was distressed by his and his

906
00:39:23,209 --> 00:39:20,519
grandson's experience quote it's just

907
00:39:25,789 --> 00:39:23,219
misinformation we have the H Triple C

908
00:39:27,559 --> 00:39:25,799
put out a warning about the AVN that's

909
00:39:32,059 --> 00:39:27,569
in play and the council turns its back

910
00:39:33,319 --> 00:39:32,069
on that end quote spoon assess local mum

911
00:39:35,929 --> 00:39:33,329
and member of the Northern Rivers

912
00:39:38,599 --> 00:39:35,939
vaccination supporters argued that

913
00:39:40,579 --> 00:39:38,609
counsel was quote facilitating the AVN

914
00:39:44,689 --> 00:39:40,589
by providing venues for their dangerous

915
00:39:46,660 --> 00:39:44,699
views and quoting the council voted five

916
00:39:49,819 --> 00:39:46,670
to three against the motion

917
00:39:52,449 --> 00:39:49,829
the Birkenstock wearing hemp swaddled

918
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:52,459
dreadlocked cliches cheered as

919
00:39:58,969 --> 00:39:55,650
alternative facts won out over actual

920
00:40:00,979 --> 00:39:58,979
science in the gallery was Cecily

921
00:40:03,829 --> 00:40:00,989
Johnson whose seven-year-old daughter

922
00:40:07,579 --> 00:40:03,839
Lane died of subacute sclerosing pan

923
00:40:10,489 --> 00:40:07,589
encephalitis SS PA a rare but fatal

924
00:40:13,429 --> 00:40:10,499
complication of measles she doesn't wish

925
00:40:15,589 --> 00:40:13,439
that sort of horror on anyone else but

926
00:40:17,689 --> 00:40:15,599
feels it will happen again to a child

927
00:40:20,010 --> 00:40:17,699
whose parent made the decision not to

928
00:40:22,650 --> 00:40:20,020
vaccinate based on lies

929
00:40:24,390 --> 00:40:22,660
at a recent airing of sacrificial

930
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:24,400
virgins at the Mullumbimby civic hall

931
00:40:30,350 --> 00:40:27,730
the AVN said it was quote once again

932
00:40:33,390 --> 00:40:30,360
providing access to cutting-edge

933
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:33,400
vaccination information and answers from

934
00:40:38,010 --> 00:40:35,410
acknowledged experts on vaccination

935
00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:38,020
science and policy end quote

936
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:40,960
just like faxed sacrificial virgins is

937
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:43,810
all scary music peppered with fringe

938
00:40:48,270 --> 00:40:46,450
dwelling experts jettison from the

939
00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:48,280
mainstream usually for a very good

940
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:51,520
reason they claim the HPV vaccine is

941
00:40:55,740 --> 00:40:53,410
destroying the lives of young girls by

942
00:40:59,040 --> 00:40:55,750
causing a neurological condition that

943
00:41:02,940 --> 00:40:59,050
leads to paralysis the main quote

944
00:41:05,790 --> 00:41:02,950
sacrificed virgin in the story is Ruby

945
00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:05,800
Shalem who became paralyzed two years

946
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:09,310
that's right two years after she had her

947
00:41:14,670 --> 00:41:12,490
Gardasil vaccination clear-cut cause and

948
00:41:16,380 --> 00:41:14,680
effect right there in the minds of those

949
00:41:17,420 --> 00:41:16,390
looking to make a buck from scaring

950
00:41:20,220 --> 00:41:17,430
people

951
00:41:23,070 --> 00:41:20,230
but here is what sacrificial virgins

952
00:41:25,770 --> 00:41:23,080
leaves out neurological conditions

953
00:41:28,609 --> 00:41:25,780
happen to teenage girls they always have

954
00:41:31,380 --> 00:41:28,619
and long before Gardasil came along

955
00:41:33,570 --> 00:41:31,390
large population studies have shown

956
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:33,580
small numbers succumb to this strange

957
00:41:38,099 --> 00:41:35,890
affliction in the unvaccinated cohort

958
00:41:41,220 --> 00:41:38,109
just as much as they do in the

959
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:41,230
vaccinated that is a big hole in the

960
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:44,050
story they even admit it in the opening

961
00:41:49,290 --> 00:41:46,810
scenes of the film quote nobody knows

962
00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:49,300
exactly why ruby has developed this

963
00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:51,520
serious neurological damage after a

964
00:41:56,700 --> 00:41:54,250
healthy and active life end quote

965
00:41:59,580 --> 00:41:56,710
before proceeding to blame the HPV

966
00:42:03,270 --> 00:41:59,590
vaccine it's not journalism it's

967
00:42:05,609 --> 00:42:03,280
propaganda and this is why the Byron

968
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:05,619
Shire will remain the lowest vaccinated

969
00:42:10,890 --> 00:42:08,650
Shire in the land many of the people who

970
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:10,900
run the place awry the anti vaccine

971
00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:13,570
selves or pandering to their conspiracy

972
00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:15,910
loving voters while turning a blind eye

973
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:18,400
to the fact the far north coast at nine

974
00:42:21,780 --> 00:42:20,170
times the rate of whooping cough last

975
00:42:24,540 --> 00:42:21,790
year then the neighboring health

976
00:42:26,490 --> 00:42:24,550
district two babies have died from

977
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:26,500
whooping cough in the region as a result

978
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:28,810
of the lack of herd immunity barely a

979
00:42:33,109 --> 00:42:30,970
week goes by without school sending a

980
00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:33,119
letter that yet another

981
00:42:39,559 --> 00:42:36,089
has whooping cough while David avocado

982
00:42:42,049 --> 00:42:39,569
Wolfe was having a cacao party in Mullen

983
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:42,059
bimby last year a seven-year-old

984
00:42:46,430 --> 00:42:44,130
deliberately unvaccinated kid from

985
00:42:49,670 --> 00:42:46,440
nimbin was fighting for her life after

986
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:49,680
getting tetanus and a week later a baby

987
00:42:53,029 --> 00:42:51,450
suffered a brain hemorrhage after his

988
00:42:56,779 --> 00:42:53,039
mother turned down the vitamin K

989
00:43:00,079 --> 00:42:56,789
injection at birth but hey Byron likes

990
00:43:02,739 --> 00:43:00,089
to have difficult discussions so how

991
00:43:05,779 --> 00:43:02,749
about discussing how misinformation and

992
00:43:20,749 --> 00:43:05,789
tacitly endorsing the spread of it is

993
00:43:22,759 --> 00:43:20,759
killing kids hello listeners a maximum

994
00:43:24,410 --> 00:43:22,769
fun I want to tell you about our newest

995
00:43:26,509 --> 00:43:24,420
podcast that tells you all about the

996
00:43:28,099 --> 00:43:26,519
truth of the Flat Earth have you been

997
00:43:29,839 --> 00:43:28,109
looking out over the horizon and you've

998
00:43:32,210 --> 00:43:29,849
been thinking wait a minute this doesn't

999
00:43:34,910 --> 00:43:32,220
look round I've been lied to my whole

1000
00:43:39,710 --> 00:43:34,920
life what is NASA doing with fifty two

1001
00:43:43,190 --> 00:43:39,720
million dollars a day come on we explode

1002
00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:43,200
the myths just kidding we're oh no Ross

1003
00:43:47,390 --> 00:43:44,910
and Carrie and we investigate

1004
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:47,400
extraordinary claims that's right we

1005
00:43:51,380 --> 00:43:48,930
investigate extraordinary claims

1006
00:43:53,269 --> 00:43:51,390
firsthand we go undercover in fringe

1007
00:43:55,370 --> 00:43:53,279
groups we get alternative medicine

1008
00:43:57,470 --> 00:43:55,380
treatments and we hang out with people

1009
00:43:59,630 --> 00:43:57,480
who have unusual beliefs like flat

1010
00:44:01,940 --> 00:43:59,640
earthers 9/11 truthers we do ghost

1011
00:44:03,739 --> 00:44:01,950
investigations we've joined Scientology

1012
00:44:06,620 --> 00:44:03,749
and we got baptized in the Mormon Church

1013
00:44:10,039 --> 00:44:06,630
if it goes bump in the night then so do

1014
00:44:14,670 --> 00:44:10,049
we hmm why don't you check out oh no

1015
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:23,310
[Music]

1016
00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:25,780
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1017
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:28,910
zone coming up next week more of me not

1018
00:44:33,550 --> 00:44:31,040
talking to the animal experts in fact

1019
00:44:37,180 --> 00:44:33,560
that the his segment will be devoted to

1020
00:44:40,050 --> 00:44:37,190
his discussion about cats cat behavior

1021
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:40,060
really interesting if you're a cat owner

1022
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:42,770
you really want to hear this interview

1023
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:45,890
about cat behavior and what you should

1024
00:44:48,790 --> 00:44:46,970
and shouldn't do

1025
00:44:52,030 --> 00:44:48,800
I certainly learned a lot with my two

1026
00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:52,040
cats where are they waiting outside the

1027
00:44:58,060 --> 00:44:55,250
door talking about cat behavior Mord

1028
00:45:01,840 --> 00:44:58,070
the smaller of the two Henrietta and

1029
00:45:05,260 --> 00:45:01,850
Maud wards are smaller as a wonderfully

1030
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:05,270
fun habit normally fun of chasing her

1031
00:45:11,470 --> 00:45:09,280
toy mouse and then bringing it back and

1032
00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:11,480
clogging it at your feet waiting

1033
00:45:16,060 --> 00:45:13,910
meowing until you throw it down the

1034
00:45:19,150 --> 00:45:16,070
stairs she comes back

1035
00:45:21,580 --> 00:45:19,160
plunk sit at your feet meows and on and

1036
00:45:24,460 --> 00:45:21,590
on and on while Henrietta has the habit

1037
00:45:28,030 --> 00:45:24,470
of putting your paws up on the desk and

1038
00:45:30,850 --> 00:45:28,040
nudging you know me while I'm trying to

1039
00:45:33,820 --> 00:45:30,860
use the mouse so sometimes I end up

1040
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:33,830
clicking on things I never meant to not

1041
00:45:39,220 --> 00:45:37,130
long now before the skeptic on here in

1042
00:45:40,900 --> 00:45:39,230
Sidney's and to those people who live

1043
00:45:42,790 --> 00:45:40,910
around the world we can't make it we'll

1044
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:42,800
be doing our best certainly may not will

1045
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:45,530
to be recording reports and interviews

1046
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:48,050
to play in the weeks following the

1047
00:45:54,340 --> 00:45:50,330
convention I noticed that the Australian

1048
00:45:56,470 --> 00:45:54,350
dollar is even lower going down against

1049
00:45:58,870 --> 00:45:56,480
the greenback and other major currencies

1050
00:46:01,060 --> 00:45:58,880
which may be a good excuse for you to

1051
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:01,070
pitch in chip into the skeptic zone via

1052
00:46:07,450 --> 00:46:04,210
patreon or PayPal at skeptic zone TV

1053
00:46:09,550 --> 00:46:07,460
because your dollar goes further or your

1054
00:46:09,990 --> 00:46:09,560
pound or your yen or whatever the case

1055
00:46:12,460 --> 00:46:10,000
may be

1056
00:46:14,890 --> 00:46:12,470
Crona I wonder if there's a song about

1057
00:46:16,450 --> 00:46:14,900
all the world's currencies and I think

1058
00:46:18,310 --> 00:46:16,460
there's another afterthought somewhere

1059
00:46:21,190 --> 00:46:18,320
along the way but anyway for now this is

1060
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:21,200
Richard Saunders signing off from Sydney

1061
00:46:31,609 --> 00:46:27,900
you've been listening to the skeptic

1062
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:31,619
zone podcast please visit our website at

1063
00:46:38,580 --> 00:46:36,610
WWDC be for show notes contacts and to

1064
00:46:42,660 --> 00:46:38,590
access the back catalogue of episodes

1065
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:42,670
going back to 2008 you can follow the

1066
00:46:48,090 --> 00:46:44,610
skeptic zone podcast on twitter at

1067
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:48,100
skeptic zone visit our facebook page or

1068
00:46:54,390 --> 00:46:51,490
leave a review on iTunes you can also

1069
00:46:57,420 --> 00:46:54,400
support the skeptic zone via patreon or

1070
00:47:00,090 --> 00:46:57,430
PayPal the skeptic zone podcast is an

1071
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:00,100
independent production reviews and

1072
00:47:04,140 --> 00:47:01,930
opinions expressed on the skeptic zone

1073
00:47:06,690 --> 00:47:04,150
are not necessarily those of Australian

1074
00:47:07,570 --> 00:47:06,700
skeptics or any other skeptical

1075
00:47:19,050 --> 00:47:07,580
organization

1076
00:47:23,590 --> 00:47:21,460
hello people who listen after the music

1077
00:47:26,530 --> 00:47:23,600
I met the cafe Madame frou frou with

1078
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:26,540
Cunha hello hi you're gonna help me play

1079
00:47:34,810 --> 00:47:32,930
the dice game since I didn't die there

1080
00:47:36,010 --> 00:47:34,820
I'm gonna roll it three times and we

1081
00:47:37,540 --> 00:47:36,020
have to guess what the numbers gonna

1082
00:47:38,980 --> 00:47:37,550
come up well you can roll it for

1083
00:47:41,110 --> 00:47:38,990
everybody actually they Rock

1084
00:47:43,020 --> 00:47:41,120
so you just shaking your hands everybody

1085
00:47:45,850 --> 00:47:43,030
at home and your car or walking the dog

1086
00:47:53,020 --> 00:47:45,860
it's a number from one to ten and roll

1087
00:47:55,420 --> 00:47:53,030
the dice and the number is number nine

1088
00:47:57,580 --> 00:47:55,430
number nine that's the first number so

1089
00:48:03,850 --> 00:47:57,590
everybody use your powers and here we go

1090
00:48:13,630 --> 00:48:03,860
next number is lucky number five number